Have a Nice Day: The low cost and big dividends of wellness

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The Weekly Take
Have a Nice Day: The low cost and big dividends of wellness

3.28.2023

Spencer Levy
In commercial real estate, wellness is not merely an ideal. It's a documentable, measurable amenity that can be used to make occupiers more productive, help attract and retain talent, and, of course, foster a healthier world. That's why wellness certification is a growing business in an ESG-minded market. We're very familiar with that here at CBRE. In fact, our London headquarters at Henrietta House just achieved Platinum WELL Certification, one of the world's leading wellness standards. And on this episode, we'll talk with the founder of that standard, along with an executive who's driving wellness initiatives for an operator with one of the largest real estate portfolios in the world. 

Paul Scialla
We've all heard of green building, right, and the environmental sustainability movement and the focus on planetary health and the energy complex. And we thought half the story was missing. 

Spencer Levy
That's Paul Scialla, founder and CEO of Delos and the International WELL Building Institute, which operates The WELL Certification, a standard with 100 inputs across ten categories, which we'll talk about on the show. WELL covers nearly 5 billion square feet of certified and rated assets in 130 countries, including about 25% of the Fortune 500 and counting. 

Brian Pagac
We started with LEED. Everybody's Energy Star rated. Then LEED was performance-based. And then the idea with the WELL program was the Health and Safety initiative. That's what we started with WELL. 

Spencer Levy
And that's Brian Pagac, vice president of engineering with Brookfield Properties in Los Angeles. Brian's a leader in The WELL Certification for the Brookfield Properties portfolio, which overall includes more than 800 managed properties, covering more than 330 million square feet around the world. We'll talk about the big picture purpose and the business case for investing in best practices and technologies for clean air, water, acoustics, light, even the practice of urban beekeeping at the office. Yes, the buildings and the bees, and a lot more: Wellness and The WELL Certification. I'm Spencer Levy and that's right now on The Weekly Take. 

Spencer Levy
Welcome to The Weekly Take and this week we're going to talk about wellness, specifically The WELL Certification. Paul Scialla, the CEO of Delos and the founder of the International WELL Building Institute. Paul, thanks for joining the show. 

Paul Scialla
And thanks for having me, great to be here. 

Spencer Levy
Great to have you here in downtown Los Angeles. And then we have Brian Pagac, vice president of Engineering, Brookfield, and we're here in their beautiful offices in downtown LA. 

Brian Pagac
Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. Really appreciate it. 

Spencer Levy 
Great to have you. So in basic terms, Paul, and we'll get more into the weeds in just a moment, just tell us what inspired you to start this WELL Initiative and then what buildings need to do to qualify. 

Paul Scialla
We've all heard of green building, right? And the environmental sustainability movement and the focus on planetary health and the energy complex. And we thought half the story was missing. While there's a lot of focus on our buildings and their impact on the planet. Years ago, we felt there needed to be as much focus on our buildings and their impact on all the people we put inside. We spend over 90% of our lives indoors; our homes, our offices, our schools, what have you. So we wanted to take an evidence based approach to connect the indoor environment with the human condition. And that's what The WELL Building Standard is all about. 

Spencer Levy
And Brian, Brookfield is a leader in this, in the LA region, maybe beyond. Tell us about that. 

Brian Pagac 
Our corporate directive actually from the investment group is to provide a healthy workspace for all occupants. In particular our people, the employees of Brookfield. So with that in mind, Brookfield took it upon themselves to certify all buildings in North America, and the results have been astounding. Tenants love it, employees love it. 

Spencer Levy 
Was that pandemic related? 

Brian Pagac
The idea was probably simultaneously with the pandemic, but we were heading in that direction after LEED Certification to be WELL Certified. The timing was great. 

Spencer Levy
Great. So, Paul, let's talk about some of the elements of this. And so we've had other episodes in the show, in fact, people you probably know, we had the authors of the book Healthy Buildings on the show, John Macomber and Joe Allen from Harvard University, talking about how not only how WELL buildings make you feel better, but makes you more productive. Tell us about that. 

Paul Scialla
So the WELL Building Standard has a lot of different components to it. The full body of work covers air quality, water quality, lighting, thermal elements, acoustics, biophilic programing, surface and cleaning protocols, HR policies, operational guidelines. I mean, that is the full WELL Standard. There are sub ratings called the health safety rating, the health equity rating, which take pieces of The WELL Standard and allow clients to enter The WELL Ecosystem, if you will. And they zoom into more specific areas of focus. For instance, the health safety rating focuses specifically on health and safety protocols, and obviously that was spawned from the onset of the pandemic. But the full body of work is interesting because you take a look at everything that surrounds you indoors. All of these inputs map directly to our respiratory, cardiovascular, immune, cognitive, digestive, and sleep health outcomes. So clearly, obviously, enhancing what surrounds you can be conducive to a better, not only healthier work environment, but a more productive work environment. 

Spencer Levy
Let's break down the categories. This will be a little bit more into the weeds. Break down the categories. You mentioned health and safety. What are some of the other major categories? 

Paul Scialla
Yeah, so the full WELL Building Standard and that full body of work, as mentioned with 100 inputs and all those ten categorical elements, that sits at the top. If you break it down, you can get into these sub designations, the WELL health safety rating and that is scaling huge. And clearly the catalyst there was the pandemic. But when you're looking at this endemic stage or future state and certainly return to work, that is a very streamlined, scalable way to demonstrate a third party verified commitment that the policies, procedures, managerial and operational guidelines of any asset have gone through a third party verified system of what's considered consensus, good practice on things like cleaning protocols and frequency there in emergency preparedness and continuity planning, air and water quality assessment, health services, communication to stakeholders, what have you. So that's a sub rating. Another one just introduced is the well, health equity rating that gets into elements of diversity, equity, inclusion and really kind of looking at health through the lens of equity. Another sub rating is the WELL performance rating, which gets into all of the measurable elements of indoor environmental conditions and quality. So things like measurable lighting, air quality, water quality, acoustics. If you piece these sub ratings together like Legos, they make up the full body of work of The WELL Building Standard. And I commend our team, our leadership team had recognized that we need to allow for this to be offered to any company, any building owner, large or small, at any scale, any level, any demographic, any economic input. And so this system allows for entry across the board any which way you'd like to really treat WELL more as a journey as opposed to one singular destination. 

Spencer Levy
Brian, we were talking in the pre-show about some of the things you do to become WELL Certified at the highest levels. Tell us about some of those innovations that Brookfield is doing, or you're thinking about. 

Brian Pagac
Things we're thinking about: battery storage, fuel storage, a virtual power purchase agreement with solar farm, because the renewable energy, that's very important. But on the ESG that directors, we're looking at from our Brookfield Asset Management, the corporate headquarters, is what are we going to do locally versus nationally and globally? And beekeeping was one of those. Urban farming is one of those. The groundwater harvesting is one of those. All the FDEs. all LED lighting, indoor concrete walls, things like that. That's what we're looking at today. We have several assets downtown LA with beehives producing several hundred jars of honey for the tenants. We've created a new groundwater harvesting system, so we're going to be more sustainable and friendly to the environment. Our new guidelines for air conditioning, lighting, acoustics creates a more productive environment for our employees. And we've realized that, and it is evidence based, we've measured it and tracked it, and we have happier employees and tenants. 

Spencer Levy
If you could tell me, how does beekeeping then fit into the whole wellness scheme? 

Brian Pagac
So from a wellness perspective, beekeeping for us joins people together and educates them on what's happening with the environment. How it impacts the environment in LA? Beekeeping is very important for our properties because we've never had it. And now that it's new, people are worried and concerned about the bees. But because we educate them and create an environment that's safe and sustainable, all the tenants enjoy that. They love it. Now they participate. 

Spencer Levy
But you also, and I say it's not in a very bottom line sense, but in a bottom line sense, you also get some points for this from a wellness standpoint. Is that true? 

Brian Pagac
It's creative and innovative.

Paul Scialla 
There are innovation credits. 

Brian Pagac 
Yes, very innovative.

Spencer Levy
Okay, cool. So speaking about bigger picture issues with respect to wellness, attraction and retention of labor is the number one issue in the world basically in every business. How does wellness play into that? 

Paul Scialla
Yeah, WELL plays right into attracting and retaining employees, attracting and retaining tenants for landlords. There is a massive ROI portal at wellcertified.com that goes through five years of extensive research specifically geared towards understanding ROI. And I'd encourage anyone interested to take a look at that but I'm going to give you a couple key stats. Third party peer reviewed statistics on ROI of the WELL Standard is – a report published in Building and Environment – WELL Certification drove nearly a 30% improvement in overall satisfaction in the workplace, jumping from 42% to 70%. These are massive numbers and massive inputs. But clearly, let's just talk layman's here. Attracting and retaining employees, well, now more than ever, if you expect someone to come to the office and stay and work for you or choose you versus another employer, you'd have to consider that putting forth an understanding and transparency that you care about their health, well-being, elements of lifestyle, should be top of the list. And we're seeing it. We're certainly seeing it. 

Spencer Levy
Now Los Angeles is obviously a warm environment. So having open air – and actually on this floor there's an open-air part where you have a television set. You've got couches where people can go outside. But not every environment is conducive to that. And in fact, many office buildings that were built a long time ago were built very tight from an air standpoint, basically a closed loop system. But post-COVID, people are now thinking about is there a better way? And I wonder, Paul, if you have any reaction to that? An older building that is completely tight from an air standpoint, what are they doing to try to get WELL Certified? 

Paul Scialla
Yeah, so the nice thing about The WELL Building Standard, it does apply to any building: new or old, large or small, what have you. And there are really unique and interesting ways that you can tackle, for instance, filtration of air in an older asset. If you can't get into the HVAC and upgrade to a MERV 13, localized filtration, a standalone purifiers can do the job. Innovation in the industry has been remarkable. Out of a crisis comes a lot of good innovation and we're really happy to see any type of asset be able to achieve. The certifications or the ratings. 

Spencer Levy
So just for the purposes of our listeners, we're in LA. The only Merv I know is Merv Griffin. He used to host a talk show when I was a kid. What is a MERV system? 

Paul Scialla
So that's just a measurement of air filtration efficiency. And I think, you know, if you look at a scale, 13 seems to be the new benchmark, if you will. Unfortunately, it took a global pandemic to shine a spotlight on this, but it really demonstrated the importance of of indoor air quality. And the reality is this has been a problem for the better part of a century. Indoor air quality is generally 2 to 5 times worse than outdoor air quality. Anywhere you go in the world, for that matter. You're not hiding from pollution by going inside. So obviously it's important to filter indoor air quality at that MERV rating. Older buildings generally lead to about a MERV eight equivalency and the new kind of upgradeable benchmark. When folks look at these ultrafine particles and the concerns on pathogens, what have you is now getting to a MERV 13 or higher. 

Spencer Levy
And they talked about some other innovations during the pandemic. I remember they were talking about ultraviolet light as something that you would essentially zap the air to purify that. Have you seen other innovations like that come out of the pandemic? 

Paul Scialla
Well, on the other side of the organization, on the Delos Solutions side, we have looked at over 200 different air filtration methodologies, approaches, technologies. There's some snake oil out there, got to be careful. The point is to take an evidence based approach and put a lot of research and vetting behind that. And there are good, effective, scalable, very affordable technologies to clean the air. 

Spencer Levy
Brian, Let's talk about the practical building landlord, building asset manager looking at WELL, as opposed to or in conjunction with LEED or Energy Star, some of the environmental factors and then you have the WELL factors. These things cost money. There's a long checklist. Tell us about the thought process of saying we're going to go with WELL, LEED or otherwise. 

Brian Pagac
The thought process for us was we started with LEED, everybody's Energy Star rated. Then LEED was performance based. And then the idea with The WELL Program was the Health and Safety initiative. That's where we started with WELL. How do we have a better environment for our employees, mostly related to indoor air quality and cleanliness. That's what we based our health and safety certification on. So we started there with the buildings. Easy for us to do, we were already ahead of the game. It was a light lift for us to get that health and safety rating. But we still want to travel down the road to get the rest of the certification: lighting, acoustics, water. We do the water certification with our UL verification and the indoor air quality for the verification mark. But the WELL rating I think is more comprehensive. It encompasses everything. So that's the road we're going to continue down. 

Paul Scialla
We've got a lot of good information on cost here. And the really nice thing about the WELL system is in some cases or in a lot of cases, these are more intelligent or more informed decisions, not necessarily more expensive decisions. I could tell you, new development for instance, the incremental cost on construction to build a WELL Certified Platinum asset. And this is based on a lot of evidence, a lot of projects going through the system is anywhere, candidly between $0 and fractions of 1% premium to normal construction. This is not a cost burden that is a payback of three or four or five, seven years, like the green building proposition. In some cases, our paybacks are much, much shorter. But it's really interesting to see, even, for instance, for the ratings, most of The WELL Health Safety Rating, for instance, focuses on operations and managerial guidelines. There's no CapEx with that. This is a third party verification of good practice. So again, the reason why we're seeing such scale here is because there's not a large upfront CapEx or economic burden to get WELL Certified or rated. 

Spencer Levy
Well, let's dig into two aspects of that. One is the ROI and the other is the scale. Let's turn to you, Brian. How do you look at it from a ROI perspective where if you wanted to go green, that could be very expensive, but maybe this isn't as expensive. 

Brian Pagac
I would echo exactly what Paul said. Our OpEx funds cover our wellness program. We don't dig into the CapEx. 

Spencer Levy
It’s not CapEx. 

Brian Pagac
Not CapEx, its OpEx. It's that small of an increment, very inexpensive, but it might be we're savvy owner, we're ahead of the game. But I would agree with Paul that it is inexpensive to be WELL Certified or to start on the health and safety rating. Most buildings can get there. You just have to be willing to do it. And our new developments versus our existing buildings for indoor air quality, the MERV 13 or better filter ratings, most buildings can accommodate that. It's not expensive.

Spencer Levy
When we talk about the “E” side of ESG, one of the greenest things you can do is keep an existing building rather than build a new one just because you're using the existing materials. But it brings up challenges of air and water quality. So, Brian, we're in a beautiful building right now, but it's built in 1982. What are some of the challenges of older buildings getting WELL-certified. 

Brian Pagac
I'll give you the best scenario: probably California Market Center, right down the street, a couple of million square feet. We renovated that project over the past five years versus tearing it down and starting over. Best sustainability project we ever did. Expensive, but well worth it because now it's a WELL-rated building, LEED, and we used everything that was there and turned it into a showcase. All of the California shows are still at California Market Center, the retail shows, wholesale shows. So it's a great asset if you get a chance to look at it. California Market Center. But this building in particular, 19 early 80s building, Wells Fargo, we still have 25 million BTU gas fired boilers that we're going to retrofit to electric boilers. Things like that have to happen, but that's in a long term plan. The WELL health and safety rating here was something we could accommodate and do quickly for the occupants of the property without changing anything structurally or related to CapEx on the mechanical systems. 

Spencer Levy
Now, I noticed in the room here that we're sitting in is fluorescent lighting. It's not the old fashioned light bulbs, but I used to cover the gaming business a long, long time ago and they always had trouble getting certified because they had smoking in the buildings. What are some of the things today that you would say are impediments to getting the highest level? WELL Rating like smoking wasn't casinos back in the day. 

Paul Scialla
Yeah, impediments to the highest rating certainly air quality is super important. The good news there, it's interesting when you look at air filtration at large, okay. Candidly, it really doesn't matter what you do in your ducts, whether you get to a MERV 13 or 16 or what have you. The reality is, and this is what the pandemic shown us, you're only going to be at best ever about 50% efficient on filtering anything coming out of someone's mouth. The human to human transmission, whether it's influenza, whether it's SARS-CoV-2. So the need to localize filtration really kind of allowed for a different approach to an alternative to very expensive HVAC upgrades whereby if you used standalone portable filtration, placed elegantly throughout a place - a space, you can achieve a MERV 16 or 17 equivalency, be 100% localized, be at 99.997% efficient on the smallest particulates known to man. Oh and by the way not drain the energy and, you know, increase the energy load on the building and go through an expensive CapEx. So even those more challenging features can be achieved into older assets, even at the highest levels of, for instance, WELL Certified Platinum. 

Spencer Levy
When you go to different countries, there's different standards of what is considered to be quality in a building, the highest standard. Paul, are you trying to get a uniform standard globally? Or are you trying to look at the nuances of local custom and building practices? 

Paul Scialla
Great question. We've managed to accomplish both. And I'll tell you why. When you look at the Green Building movement and a lot of the green ratings, there are climatic differences and inputs around the world. And you've seen this bifurcation of whether it's BREEAM in Europe or LEED in the United States or Green Star, Three Star and all these different green ratings. We approach this differently. When we launched The WELL Building Standard seven plus years ago, we recognized that the human condition is universal. What's optimal for pulmonary health in Beijing, China is the same as in New York City. Human beings are identical biologically, if you will, and because of that universality, if you will. What we understood was we could create one rating. We can internationalize it. Hence the International WELL Building Institute. And now in 130 countries with broad adoption, we've done this, even recognizing the localization need, through what we call international equivalencies. So we've opened up the world building standard to the world and the user base to propose and suggest international equivalencies where they would apply. And that allows for this standard to be both a locally relevant standard but also internationally relevant standard. So it's effectively a consensus driven, movement driven approach. It's the industry's standard. And the industry is innovating and allowing for approved features once they're submitted to become BREEAM. And so the standard gets more dynamic over time and more relevant over time and more localized over time, even though it is one universal international blueprint. 

Spencer Levy
Ongoing changes to The WELL Standards which you’re constantly upgrading to try to make them better and add new categories. Bryan, as somebody who has to implement these day to day, how do you keep up with the changes to WELL to make sure that you're compliant? 

Brian Pagac
Our corporate office out of Toronto, we have a team that's constantly looking at WELL and other certifications. I guess the comment that I've heard was “In WELL We Trust”. So we do have a team of people that are constantly looking at that to see where we should be, where we're headed because we want more certifications, not just health and safety. 

Paul Scialla
And to Brian's point, and to add on that, the certifications they have, they have to be renewed. They're an annual renewal to ensure that the ongoing practices are maintained and continue to be verified. 

Brian Pagac
We're actually in renewal today for 2023. 

Spencer Levy
Looking from another angle, I would suggest, and it's been suggested on this show that maybe that is now the new normal, new table stakes, if you will. If you build a new building, you've got to have it. Do you agree with that? 

Paul Scialla
I do agree with that. We saw tremendous adoption of The WELL Building Movement prior to the onset of the pandemic. Billions of square feet, a very vertical adoption curve. And at the end of the day, we had been for the last, I'd say decade plus on the precipice of a wellness revolution, okay. Health and wellness is being infused into every consumer product category we see or touch nowadays. Whether it's organic food versus not what have you. Our question early on was, well, why not real estate? Why not our largest consumption? The homes we buy, the offices we spend 8 to 10 hours a day. That wellness real estate proposition seemed to make intuitive economic sense. Then boom, you've got a global shock and you've given people, candidly, a reason to stay at home and work in their pajamas. And they're going to make up every excuse until they can't anymore to continue to work from home. This is an incredible leverage mechanism for employers and for landlords to demonstrate, hey, we have gone through a third party verified, consensus driven approach on your health and safety, okay. So that excuse, if you will, with regards to, well, I don't feel safe. That's going to start to wane. So this is a huge return to work play. But bigger picture, this, we believe, is a new benchmark. How do you not consider the human condition when you're building and renovating and operating all these spaces that we spend 90% of our lives in? That's why we build buildings in the first place, for the people inside them. 

Spencer Levy
So we've talked a lot today about air quality. Let's talk about water for a moment. The wellness category is probably dealing more with the cleanliness of the water than it is the availability. But how do you see those? 

Paul Scialla
Yeah, it's interesting when you look at a well - let's take the category of water, for instance. You know, from an environmental standpoint, it is the scarcity and availability of water and the use or overuse, what have you. From a health and wellness standpoint, it's the quality of water. I think water is that next chapter of transparency and focus. And the good news is ultimately folks will understand and understand how to remediate and understand what's important. But you've got to go through that initial process of awareness, just like we have done with air quality for the last several years. 

Spencer Levy
Let's talk about a couple of the other categories just so we can have a complete description. You mentioned acoustics. You mentioned light, heat. Talk about how those factors play into wellness. 

Paul Scialla
Look when we first started this, it was fascinating to get doctors together with architects and engineers and designers. I mean, I remember one particular day very early on, I sat three doctors down with three architects, didn't tell them why they were there and just asked a pretty provocative question, which was, doctors, architects, if you could dream it up, what types of things could we do to introduce preventative medical interventions into the way we design and operate our buildings? This was before The WELL Building Standard came out, right? So and the two groups looked at each other like it was the first time they were ever having a conversation, which was a cue for me at least, to realize, wow, perhaps the health sciences and the building sciences never really converged as we went through the five year process, pulling in the world renowned Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, and about 300 doctors of different disciplines from around the world. Getting together with real estate professionals of all types – owners, operators, developers, architects, engineers, facilities, managers, HR professionals, what have you. We started to learn some fascinating things. For instance, temperature, the male condition and female condition have about a four-degree fahrenheit difference, biologically. Yet building code is generally set for the male condition. Thermal comfort is important. Understanding various elements of temperature zones and inputs is important. That's part of The WELL Building Standard. Lighting, lighting is - I'm still most fascinated by the work done in lighting, particularly understanding the circadian condition. There is a nerve in your eye that has nothing to do with vision. It takes in peripheral light or darkness. It's called the circadian optic nerve. And it's basically the only thing that tells your body what time of day it is. And regulating hormones for sleep or for energy based on the type of light that enters that nerve. That circadian lighting is all part of The WELL Building Standard as well. So just a few tidbits. But yeah, we learned a lot of great things. 

Spencer Levy
A couple more issues and then we'll wrap it up. 

Paul Scialla
Sure.

Spencer Levy
But let's bring up the IOT, the Internet of Things. From Brookfield's perspective, recognizing that each interior tenant's space is not completely in your control, but how are you using the Internet of Things sensors to make sure you're getting it right? 

Brian Pagac
We've just recently installed WELL stat sensors for air quality. We have all of our waters metered, so we know exactly where our consumption is. And testing the water on a regular basis so we know the quality of the water. But on the lighting, our lighting programs are automated and they all have sensors. So we're not wasting energy, but we're using the correct light as needed. And those are design issues with the tenant and our construction department. So we know exactly what's being installed and used and we keep an inventory of that, but we know the light levels as well. So from an energy perspective and the quality of lighting. 

Spencer Levy
WELL’s been around for 14 years. What's the future of WELL look like? Where are you going over the next five years? 

Paul Scialla
Thanks for the question. You know, what's really exciting to see is when you create a benchmark that's so widely adopted and scales and has economic proof and all the ROI metrics to boot, you start to see other sectors get interested and ask us, Hey, for instance, homebuilders. Well, you guys certify everything under the sun. Anything that's got a front door in the world except…

Spencer Levy
Single family.

Paul Scialla
…single family detached homes. Can we have a version of your standard? And so through a consensus driven approach, for about two years, we created the WELL Home Advisory, invited everyone into the process, and we're thrilled next month to launch The WELL Home Program for single family detached. So that's been exciting to see. I also am excited to see the next evolution of this, which has been a question we've gotten for years. I'd go back five years on this. Manufacturers have been asking us constantly, Oh, look, if my product can meet one of your features or achieve a credit or partial credit in the WELL standard, can I have The WELL mark on my product? And we intentionally held off because we didn't want to confuse the ecosystem. We wanted to lay the foundation away by putting seals on the front doors. But we've identified over 50 product categories that are relevant to The WELL Standard: obviously, air filtration, water filtration, office furniture, things like sit-stand desks, building materials and inputs, glass, even dishware. The size of dishware in a cafeteria can really help eliminate overconsumption, what have you. So millions and millions of products SKUs out there, eligible if you will. And in the coming month or months, we are launching The Works with WELL Mark for manufacturers. And again, same consensus driven approach, globally taking manufacturers from around the world, I believe over 75 of them, over the last year and a half to create this program with them and service what they need. And those were based on industry incoming requests, as opposed to us trying to push or innovate new offerings. Its really the benefit of, I think, having a very credible, highly recognized third party verified source that can serve that role as that standard, if you will, and that verification platform. So single family homes and products for The WELL Ecosystem. 

Spencer Levy
From your perspective, Brian, you have an enormous portfolio here in Southern California, Los Angeles. Same basic question I asked Paul next five years, what do you see coming from a wellness perspective? 

Brian Pagac
From our perspective is to continue down the health and safety, add whatever categories we can up and down the coast for this region. And new acquisitions, by the way. We've made several in the past couple of years, but the goal is to continue down, get everybody health and safety rated with WELL and then continue with acoustics, water, air. 

Paul Scialla
There you go. 

Spencer Levy
On behalf of The Weekly Take, I really want to thank two terrific guests here today. Starting with Paul Scialla, the CEO of Delos and the founder of the International WELL Building Institute. Paul, great job. Thanks for joining us. 

Paul Scialla
Thank you so much for having me. 

Spencer Levy
And then I want to thank Brian Pagac, vice president of engineering at Brookfield. Thank you for hosting us here today in your beautiful building and being a leader in implementing WELL in your buildings. 

Brian Pagac 
Thank you very much. We're glad to have you. Appreciate it. And thanks Paul. 

Paul Scialla
Thank you, Brian. 

Spencer Levy
For more on wellness and related content, check out our website, CBRE.com/TheWeeklyTake. And you know what else is good for you? Sharing The Weekly Take with your friends and colleagues. You can send them a link to this episode as well as subscribe, rate, and review the show wherever you listen. Next week, we'll bring you the story of a fashion brand that's really hopping; Psycho Bunny and its growth story of e-commerce, bricks and mortar, and a unique real estate journey. As always, we appreciate you taking the time to join us and look forward to having you back again for that show and lots more that we have in the works. For now, I'm Spencer Levy. Be smart, be safe, and of course, be well.